Curse

AirOnG · Jun 23, 2005, 10:15 AM // 10:15

There's an easy beetletun quest where you can quickly gain XP and some loot since it has a high density of mobs when you're being run through to ascension. You just have to make sure you don't kill the last mob so the quest doesn't end. Would not turning the quest in in order to do the quest over and over be considered a bannable offense by Arena.net? We must have answers to questions like this since what is and is not an exploit is so ambiguous. When vengeance was bugged, it was clearly an exploit but no one was banned for that. Where is the line drawn honestly?

All you have to do for this "exploit" is to simply obey the mechanics of the game. It does not require any third party programs or alteration of the normal execution of the game. You simply use mechanics within the game to achieve your result.

I'm asking this because Arena.net has deemed certain exploits banworthy and others not banworthy. So far, the types of exploits Arena.net has banned are those that alter the normal execution of the game or those that use third party hooks/programs. Arena.net has yet to draw a clear distinction on what is bannable and what is not.

Sovetskeey · Jun 23, 2005, 10:22 AM // 10:22

I think they only ban for really major exploits. When that exploit where you fight your Doppelganger over and over came about, they only banned a couple dozen accounts who took major advantage of it.

Haung Yu · Jun 23, 2005, 10:29 AM // 10:29

If it is against the EULA, it is a bannable offence. If it's a minor bug not stated in the EULA, then you probably do not deserve a ban. Furthermore, not everyone knew Vengence was bugged. Banning everyone who used Vengence just because it was bugged is a bit silly, and unfair to those who were unaware of this bug.

AirOnG · Jun 23, 2005, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haung Yu

If it is against the EULA, it is a bannable offence. If it's a minor bug not stated in the EULA, then you probably do not deserve a ban.

Well, the EULA merely says exploit or bug with unintended effects and is not more specific than that. The question becomes what exactly is an exploit or a bug? Is not turning in a quest to do it over and over again considered an exploit or not? It seems at this point that it is a valid game mechanic if Arena.net remains silent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haung Yu

Furthermore, not everyone knew Vengence was bugged. Banning everyone who used Vengence just because it was bugged is a bit silly, and unfair to those who were unaware of this bug.

How about if a clan exploited extinction & raising 50 bone minions before the prematch ends through suicide? Arena.net might consider that an exploit if you win HoH a lot with it but you might consider it a valid game mechanic. How about if they intended prematch only to be for planning out strategies and putting on enchantments and not being able to have a 40 second corpse factory? My point is is that Arena.net should not be ambiguous about what is and is not exactly an exploit. They should either have to warn you beforehand publically on their website or clearly have it laid out in the EULA what an exploit exactly is.

I do not think Arena.net should be able to ban exploits that rely purely on the game's mechanics. They should only ban exploits that have been publically condemned on their website/login screen, exploits that involve disrupting the normal execution of the program (i.e. alt-f4 in Augury), and exploits involving third party programs and hacks.

Edit: Another exploit: Loot in Arid Sea for several hours to unlock perfect weapon mods before they fixed it. No one was banned for it, but it was clearly an exploit and they tangibly benefited from it. It was merely using the game mechanics to rezone and reset the loot. How can Arena.net ban for certain exploits and not ban for other exploits? It was clearly not intended and deemed an exploit by the devs since they fixed it, and under the EULA, they could've perma-banned people for it yet they didn't.

Ancalagon06 · Jun 23, 2005, 11:17 AM // 11:17

I think it was the fact that, reportedly, some peopled did the ascension bug 100 times or more. That much XP goes beyond the scope of anything you or I have attained, and they probably deemed it too unbalancing.

Arrow Whisper · Jun 23, 2005, 11:20 AM // 11:20

The majority of air-breathing people on this planet KNOW what's right and wrong. Some even live by some type of moral code. If you think it's wrong, or have to ask if it's wrong, then chances are, it's wrong.

Anytime you have to question yourself as to rather something is or is not acceptable, error on the side of caution and consider it not acceptable.

AirOnG · Jun 23, 2005, 11:32 AM // 11:32

That is a pretty bad stance to take considering vengeance was clearly exploited during its tenure of being bugged. If you didn't exploit it or many other questionable things in PvP such as bodyblocking for over a minute w/o a hero, you'd be reamed by the competition.

I pose this dilemna to you. They didn't ban people for the arid sea loot exploit that allowed everyone to unlock all weapon mods in a matter of hours. How about if there was some other game mechanic that was completely within the ruleset of the game (no alt-f4 or external program) and allowed you to unlock all perfect weapon mods in a matter of hours? Should they ban for that without any warning although they hadn't banned for the exact same thing earlier?

Calimar · Jun 23, 2005, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Agreed on "moral code". Still, my moral code might be very different from yours - I might think that being this a fun-game I should be playing by the adventures and never repeat them, and let everyone play its game, while you might think that since it's heavily competitive, you ought to find every nudge and bend and dark corner of the "rules" (mechanics), since that is basically what makes a strategy better than another: unexpected deadly combos (my guildmaster claims he can kill anyone in 3 blows with a combo. Is that true? false? right? wrong?).

The definition of "exploit" is terribly fuzzy and the ban is a very harsh penance. If I were Arena.net (and I'm not, but if I were ;p), I'd do this:

a) Progression of Penance:
- you exploit one thing once, I warn you. You do it twice, character deleted and storage emptied. You do it thrice, ban (except when the exploit is obviously malicious).

b) State clearly what is what. If people KNOW, they can't complain. I consider myself a pretty decent player (as in honesty not skill), but I could've been abusing bugs I know nothing of. Should I be banned? If you think my character has taken an unwanted advantage, destroy it. But banning me basically prevents me from gaming GW ever again (unless I buy another box, which I will never do, considering the risk to be banned again). Considering I'm very competitive too, I might as well have used exploits or bugs I know nothing of, just because they worked: if the "rules" (game client) tells me I can, I assume it's legal and right too (except for little things).

Example? You get 2 bunches of Althea's ashes after the mission. I had a friend that needed to do that mission with his second character, I gave him the ashes. I think it didn't work - but for what I know, it could have, and it would be an exploit, and 2000 free xps. Should I be banned? Probably, considering the EULA, since I ATTEMPTED an exploit to gain unfair advantage. Is my "transgression" worth losing a player? I don't think so. Did I make the game worse, or would the game be made worse if everyone did what I did? Only till the next patch, by all likelyness.

A 'bot or cheat is one thing - you are trying to gain an edge over the others not through skill or tactics or careful planning and examination of the game mechanics, but through a sabotage. I think this is were the distinction should be made - but of course this just is my opinion. I'd be very interested in hearing Arena.net's.

Calimar
-- who can't stop being amazed at how much this game is EXACTLY how he would've made it.

Saerden · Jun 23, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrow Whisper

The majority of air-breathing people on this planet KNOW what's right and wrong. Some even live by some type of moral code. If you think it's wrong, or have to ask if it's wrong, then chances are, it's wrong.

Anytime you have to question yourself as to rather something is or is not acceptable, error on the side of caution and consider it not acceptable.

Sorry but this is a joke. there is no such thing right or wrong in the first place. Some moral woldviews have more guns than other moral worldviews though...

But honestly, in a game based on competition, there must be RAW (rules as wirtten). If you go by your abstract moral values of right and wrong, noone besides you need to play the game.
Sorry but even "murder" is not universally accepted as being wrong (abortion, self-defense, death penalty). [I do not claim that anything listed IS murder, but there are some people who believe some or all of them to BE murder. There is no absolute right or wrong here, unless "ThePowerfullGuywiththelightthing" shows up and tells us].

Claiming that you can tell wether something is wrong or right in a game is a joke. Sorry, but most evergrinders would consider it an exploit to change your secondary profession at will. Yes there are people who consider wa/mos to be exploiters, because 1 person never was "supposed to" tank 4 newbs in the arena...

Either AN makes it 100% clear what an exploit is, or the bannings are arbitrary. Sure the EULA allows it. If you let it happen, the EULA will claim your firstborn too...

Syno · Jun 23, 2005, 12:27 PM // 12:27

I always considered "exploits" to be defined as taking advantage of a bug. Something that was not programmed as intended. If enemies spawn repeatedly due to a bug, then its an exploit to take advantage of it. If they spawn because of normal reasons, then you are using game mechanics to advance. It's not right or wrong, its a personal "do I want to stand here and do this for hours" kind of thing. I would not consider it an exploit in any way, and if they did, its a defendable one.

A free web-based wargame you can play from anywhere.

Starsky-sama · Jun 23, 2005, 01:07 PM // 13:07

to original poster.

it just seems like your farming xp/items, thats all. and it really isnt an exploit.

you can do the same thing in every area. just like ppl who do the missions over and over.

-Victory is Mine!

Storn · Jun 23, 2005, 01:12 PM // 13:12

And so what? Your level caps at 20. By just going through the storyline, you are going to be pretty close to 20 anyhow.

I'm on my 2nd character now, I don't do every side quest, I don't bother... I know that I'll wrack up enuff xp as I get to each stage just fine. I do the quests that Ihaven't done before, that is for sure.

AirOnG · Jun 23, 2005, 02:02 PM // 14:02

It's not a matter of what I'm doing, Starsky. It's a matter of what Arena.net considers a bannable offense. The only consistency in Arena.net's banning so far seems to be that they don't ban exploits that are abused purely through ingame mechanics. With the way they worded the EULA and their news post about the Augury Rock banning, they could've banned people for something as tame as exploiting vengeance in guild v guild.

uigrad · Jun 23, 2005, 02:09 PM // 14:09

I have a question about those Beetletun mobs. I've noticed they're around every time I leave the city, and I haven't completed the quest yet. Once I complete the quest, do they stop spawning there?

I have farmed them, once. But, it wasn't purposeful. I was trying to finish up all my old quests, and left the city solo. I killed the first 4 groups, but then my dp got high enough that I just gave up. But, I can see how they would be a very good farming spot, if I just put a little more thought into my skillbar.

Granamyr · Jun 23, 2005, 02:42 PM // 14:42

You can kill all of the mobs in Undead Hordes and still keep doing the quest. Just abandon it and reacquire it. They changed the quest with the last patch to make it a little harder to solo what with the addition of the clerics but it is still very doable.

As to whether this is an offense worthy of banning, well that's not really the point of this thread. Let's be honest here, this thread was started so as to re-address and condemn ANet's actions in their last batch of bannings. Other threads that addressed this were closed so this is the latest attempt at bringing the issue back.

Personally, I'm in favor of threads like this and anything that calls ANet out on such a horrible decision. Such drastic actions based on vague and ambiguous rules should not be tolerated. It was wrong in so many ways:

1. Inconsistency: Whether someone did it 1 time or 100 times, the infraction was still the same and thus the punishment should be the same. ANet doesn't have a window into anyone's soul so intentional abuse cannot be established.

2. Ill-defined Rules: None of us have a window into ANet's soul and thus are unable to play the game exactly how it was intended to be played. By allowing such a rule to exist, you could call any bug in the game a bannable offense. Some monster gets stuck between a wall, you kill it, you just exploited an instance that ANet did not intend to happen. Everyone can essentially be banned.

3. Cruel and Unusual Punishment: Let the punishment fit the crime. If you were given 1,000,000 experience tomorrow, would that automatically make your character unbeatable? Would you stop playing the game because it instantly became too easy? Yeah, me neither. Why didn't they just take away the skill points that were ill-gotten? This could have been done to everyone that took advantage of the exploit so it would have been fair across the board.

4. It was ANet's error: It was a flaw in their coding that allowed all of these exploits. I failed to read in the EULA that said we have all been hired to the Quality Assurance staff. It is not our job to test their software for them and if it is, I'm still waiting on my check.

Hell Marauder · Jun 23, 2005, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

It's not a matter of what I'm doing, Starsky. It's a matter of what Arena.net considers a bannable offense. The only consistency in Arena.net's banning so far seems to be that they don't ban exploits that are abused purely through ingame mechanics. With the way they worded the EULA and their news post about the Augury Rock banning, they could've banned people for something as tame as exploiting vengeance in guild v guild.

Correction: it's not only what Anet considers a bannable offense, but also whether you can be caught. How do you catch someone using vengeance in pvp before patch? It's very easy to see who used mirror self exploit or other types of add-ons, but come on, there is no way Anet can catch and punish someone exploiting through farming or over a broken skill. If you think this world is full of nice law-abiding citizens you'll be disappointed. In everyday life, people violate laws all the time, from the president up to ordinary citizen like you and me, but as long as you don't think you're doing something very very wrong, you'll be ok. And btw, no one can memorize every legal sentence to abide to it word to word anyway.

AirOnG · Jun 23, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Have you ever heard of logging, Hell Marauder? How do you think they caught people doing the mirror-self run and were able to (according to them) actually count the amount of times they exploited the bug before the patch was even implemented to fix it? Considering the game is hosted on their servers and logging is a trivial implementation, a.net can easily police their own game if they deemed it necessary.

If A.net wanted to, I'm very sure they could've made a list of all the people who had used vengeance repeatedly with no other res spell on their team in a guild vs guild.

Night Daftshadow · Jun 23, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovetskeey

I think they only ban for really major exploits. When that exploit where you fight your Doppelganger over and over came about, they only banned a couple dozen accounts who took major advantage of it.

oh, now i see what the major exploit was. I couldnt recall it before. now i remember at augury rock how some players were going on about how they could beat their Doppelganger over and over again. besides, who wants to play the Beetletun mob quest over and over again? not me. im glad that im over with that quest.

Myodato · Jun 23, 2005, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Lets face it, anybody who has played the game for more than 5 minutes knows roughly how much gold/xp their lvl x character can hope to earn in a typical period. If they suddenly find a way, through a very specific set of actions, that allows them to significantly increase that, then they should be surprised if they are punished for doing so. Seriously, if somebody can honestly turn round and say "OMG I didn't realise that getting 1k xp for killing my Doppelganger every 30 seconds was an exploit!" or whatever, then they're too stupid to be allowed to play the game anyway.

And please, no more of the ridiculous idea that people should only be punished for published exploits. If Anet know enough to tell people it's an exploit, then they probably know enough to fix it don't they ? /smacks head.

Is a straight ban too harsh ? Arguably yes, but Anet have made it very clear so far that is what they're going to do, so I don't think anybody can object to it if they willingly break the rules knowing that a ban is a distinct possibility.

Creston · Jun 23, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

There's an easy beetletun quest where you can quickly gain XP and some loot since it has a high density of mobs when you're being run through to ascension. You just have to make sure you don't kill the last mob so the quest doesn't end. Would not turning the quest in in order to do the quest over and over be considered a bannable offense by Arena.net? We must have answers to questions like this since what is and is not an exploit is so ambiguous. When vengeance was bugged, it was clearly an exploit but no one was banned for that. Where is the line drawn honestly?

All you have to do for this "exploit" is to simply obey the mechanics of the game. It does not require any third party programs or alteration of the normal execution of the game. You simply use mechanics within the game to achieve your result.

I'm asking this because Arena.net has deemed certain exploits banworthy and others not banworthy. So far, the types of exploits Arena.net has banned are those that alter the normal execution of the game or those that use third party hooks/programs. Arena.net has yet to draw a clear distinction on what is bannable and what is not.

If they banned for that, I would NEVER EVER buy another Anet product. What's the difference between doing that, and continuously doing a mission? You can fight about 30 Charr within 10 seconds of starting Nolani, which is a great way to get Charr hides. Would that be illegal too?

Seriously, Anet needs to be VERY careful with their banning stick. (and preferably also shelve their Nerf Bat)

Creston